Curse

ogre_jd · Mar 18, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

For example, who among us would suggest that the BMP was not a form of new content? And yet, you could never physically buy it in a store.

Actually, you can. It's part of the Factions Platinum Edition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I've not felt any impact personally from the introduction of Mercenary Heroes. Well, to a very small extent, I've seen people clear DoA HM in top-notch speed with Mercenary Heroes, but that's it.

Sure, but did they do it with a team composition that can ONLY be done with combinations of Primary professions (and which wouldn't work just as well, for those who don't track the maths with spreadsheets and such, with said professions as a secondary) that are not possible with the standard Heroes?

inscribed · Mar 18, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

They should just open up the old henchmen as heroes now. That way people can run more than 2 or 3 of a class without having to pay for the merc pack. It shouldn't be too hard, I'd imagine. All the character models are already there. Make them available early on in the Tyrian and Canthan campaigns so new toons don't have to start in Elona just to get early access to heroes.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 18, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Actually, you can. It's part of the Factions Platinum Edition.

Nice catch. I was unaware of the fact that the BMP in included in the platinum edition. I suppose its still worth pointing out that the online non-online retail way of getting it is with the Platinum edition... and if you already owned factions and prophecies there'd be no reason to buy it except for the BMP, which can be obtained separately and for less money.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 18, 2011, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by inscribed

They should just open up the old henchmen as heroes now. That way people can run more than 2 or 3 of a class without having to pay for the merc pack. It shouldn't be too hard, I'd imagine. All the character models are already there. Make them available early on in the Tyrian and Canthan campaigns so new toons don't have to start in Elona just to get early access to heroes.

That would be a pretty big F.U. to the people that already spent money on merc heroes...

Let's face it... the merc heroes are far from necessary. If you want to buy them because you want to save a few minutes/seconds with some in-game activity, go ahead. The time differential between using 7 in game heroes and using 7 heroes with some/all of them mercs seems pretty low, if it exists at all.

Kunder · Mar 18, 2011, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

That would be a pretty big F.U. to the people that already spent money on merc heroes...

Let's face it... the merc heroes are far from necessary. If you want to buy them because you want to save a few minutes/seconds with some in-game activity, go ahead. The time differential between using 7 in game heroes and using 7 heroes with some/all of them mercs seems pretty low, if it exists at all.

Just adding another rit and mesmer hero to round out every class to 3 heroes each is a pretty big F.U. to the people that already bought mercs, since its those two classes who are simultaneously the most powerful and the most rare in PvE.

Konker2020 · Mar 18, 2011, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Personally, I think it'd be a good idea to provide a continuous number of in-game heroes. What I mean by that is for each hero profession to have 3 heroes. For example, the Warrior, Ranger, Monk, Necromancer, Elementalist and Dervish professions all have 3 heroes, while the Mesmer, Assassin, Ritualist and Paragon professions only have 2 heroes available. What I suggest is to add 1 hero for each of the 4 professions with only 2 heroes. Then you can cap off the profession limit per player to 3 heroes of the same profession, leaving mercenary heroes purely cosmetic. It accomplishes the goal that they intended to accomplish while leaving it balanced for everyone regardless of whether or not they want multiple copies of themselves as heroes. Thoughts on this?

EDIT: I just noticed something similar to this was already suggested.

Bristlebane · Mar 18, 2011, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I have a full merc pack, and I still think it's a great idea to add a few more heroes ingame. Make it an even number for each profession.

*lemming* · Mar 18, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Firstly, people really need to stop talking about 7 necro. That's only one of the astronomical number of possibilities that having any combination of heroes grants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

As for the anti-merc people, it seems to be basically

1) I have to pay to have the same advantages and disadvantages as people who paid more than me.

2) The price for this minor advantage is too high.

3) Merc heroes blur the lines between cosmetic upgrades and upgrades which actually make the game easier for the player.

Did I get that right?

I suppose, although I believe that only the third is actually a legitimate counterargument. The first two are more incidental.

Also, the argument that "you could do it already anyways" doesn't work. Look at all the positive feedback from 7 heroes being first announced, then released - a lot of people have a really hard time finding other people to play with. How is it legitimate at all to compare the strength of a 7 hero party to having 8 people in your group? As for dual accounting, you're basically going in with a party of 7.5 instead of 8 that also requires you to actually own a second account with all the chapters you need that has a PvE character that's gotten as far as you need. Not everyone has that.

(There's also the fact that heroes play some bars far better than 99.9% of human players, but that's kind of incidental too.)

Anyway, back to my post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

1. Advantages are minor
2. Anet needs our charity

I just summed up the pro-Anet side of the argument, right?

Questions!

1. How significant an advantage would make people start questioning a microtransaction? If we're arguing about the minor effect of things, the buyable option to have a second secondary profession probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run, right? What about axes that do 6-30 damage?

2. For people who feel fine with spending money because they feel like GW is a very good value in terms of fun per cost, is the marginal amount of fun for the cost of, say, a $45 mercenary hero pack worth it, objectively? Try to avoid postpurchase validation.

-Sonata- · Mar 18, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Do you consider the introduction of Mercenary Heroes to be an unfair game advantage for those with excess real-life money or an aesthetic fan-service that benefits many of the game's players (or both)? Explain.

No, I don't. An 8 man Necro party, or Mesmer party can steamroll PvE as easily as a mixed party containing multiple professions. They're not doing anything I can't do in a mixed lineup, except maybe doing it a tad quicker. Not an issue.

Are teams consisting of 7 heroes of the same profession consistent with the game's themes and/or felt values? Why or why not?

I'm not sure what the games theme(s) and/or "values" are supposed to be. There is nothing traditional about Guild Wars. The difference between 7 AI Mesmers and 7 Human Mesmers is human hands on the keyboard and mouse. Prior to this introduction, same profession parties were clearing areas.

Do you believe that this is a "trend" that the Live Team and Anet may continue to follow in the future? In your opinion, is that a good or bad thing?

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by trend. If it's to imply that Merc heroes are, indeed, a gameplay advantage, I suppose people will argue it is. I don't, so no, I don't feel it's a trend. I've said in the past that my personal line in the sand is distinct competitive advantage. Should the time ever come (which I don't think it will) that we see Exclusive Swords in the store that deal 15-30 dmg, Dervish armor with an AR of 80, or exclusive skills, all that can be used in PVP as well, then you annihilate any sort of balance this game ever had. It is, without any doubt, a gear based game only available to cash users.

Profit is obviously always a concern for any for-profit business. However, over the years many game companies have added features to games specifically for the benefit of their fans, whether for monetary gain or not. What do you believe is the primary motivation for the addition of Mercenary Heroes - profit, fan service, or a mixture of both?

Definitely both. The idea of having AI companions that were other characters on an account was floated in another game (I don't recall which) some time ago. It's a desirable idea, which leads to income.

Does the addition of Mercenary Heroes change your opinion on the direction of the future of the company; namely - Guild Wars 2? If so, in a positive or negative way?

Neither. I can't base this one introduction in GW1 as to what effect it would, or would not, have on GW2. If GW2 is loaded in content and has some cosmetic luxuries in a store, I'm all for it. If GW2's content becomes a system like LotRO, or DDO, my opinion will change and chances are I'll stay away from it. We'll have to wait and see. As it stands right now though, I'm looking forward to GW2 based on the information available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverblad3

At this stage of the game does it matter, not really Anet want everyone to get their titles fast so they can milk them more in GW2, simple business.

You want to know what milking really is? Peek your head into SOE's Freerealms and you'll know what real milking is. And the sad thing is, that game is supposedly designed for kids.

Improvavel · Mar 18, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Also, the argument that "you could do it already anyways" doesn't work. Look at all the positive feedback from 7 heroes being first announced, then released - a lot of people have a really hard time finding other people to play with. How is it legitimate at all to compare the strength of a 7 hero party to having 8 people in your group? As for dual accounting, you're basically going in with a party of 7.5 instead of 8 that also requires you to actually own a second account with all the chapters you need that has a PvE character that's gotten as far as you need. Not everyone has that.

Why 8 people party then?

Compare a party with 1 player with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen with a party with 2 players and 6 heroes.

I play with a friend because it is FUN to play with a FRIEND! Not so much to play with a STRANGER, although sometimes it is fun to mess with STRANGERS, since that is how you turn STRANGERS into FRIENDS. On the other hand when I go watch a movie/play football/have a meal, I go with friends not strangers.

1 player in a full human party needs to play its bar. 1 player in a 7 hero party needs to play its bar and do all the aggro, and spread the heroes out of AoE, and manually cast skills that heroes can't use properly, pre-prot, pre cast spirits, etc. I've to tell you it isn't fun managing my bar and at the same time micro 1 hero back to cast frozen soil out of range enemy AoE and then tell it to come back.

Why do people keep insisting that somehow finding a party of 8 players is somewhat a skill that needs to be rewarded and someone going with a party with AI is a lazy bum?

If 8 fully customizable skill bars are overpowered and make the game to easy that is because the skills are overpowered and the AI is dumb, it isn't because heroes are overpowered.

You don't solve that by only allowing players that play with at least 1 other player to be entitled to customize their party.

You solve it by nerfing the power of skills and fixing AI.

Quote:

1. How significant an advantage would make people start questioning a microtransaction? If we're arguing about the minor effect of things, the buyable option to have a second secondary profession probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run, right? What about axes that do 6-30 damage?

When those things happen we can talk about them.

Quote:

2. For people who feel fine with spending money because they feel like GW is a very good value in terms of fun per cost, is the marginal amount of fun for the cost of, say, a $45 mercenary hero pack worth it, objectively? Try to avoid postpurchase validation.

If the mercenary pack was simply allowing to use more heroes of the same profession, I wouldn't buy it.

I bought it because I enjoy to have some of my characters running around in my party.

It is worth $45? Hardly.

The simple fact that is sometimes worth to bring more than 2-3 of the same profession than some other profession is simply a reflection of the game imbalances and differences between profession powers.

Daeheru · Mar 18, 2011, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Yes, the players that buy the Merc Pack are at an advantage simply for the obvious reason that they can get more heroes of a single profession. The only drawback to that is that they have to have a character of that profession (although they could just make a PvP char).

The game was fine the way it was before. The only time that more than 2-3 of a single profession was used in a team build is for SCs which require PvE skills for almost all builds, meaning players were needed. It wasn't like there were areas that REQUIRED 4+ heroes of the same profession.

I believe that ANet just did this for the money. They knew players would think it would be cool to see their other characters that they spent money on to make them look good in a party. That plus the cost shows this. It's not worth $45 to see 7 (or 8 in 12-man areas) heroes that look like your characters in your party.

The only benefits that I see for the players with the merc pack (as far as gameplay is concerned) are:
1. More team build possibilities, giving players an advantage by using real money (which I HATE when other MMO games do that, Archlord for example).
2. Players can now do 12-man areas with just heroes. For this ANet conveniently (sarcasm) made it so that if you wanted to do this, you had to either go in with 11 people in the team (you+7 heroes+3 merc heroes) or spend another $25 to fill that last slot with another merc (or could you get the 3 pack+1 for only $30?). This also supports the argument that ANet released this to get money.

However, I know that the game does not require these mercs so I don't really care about them. Also, I know that other players will buy these and as long as the money goes to improving GW2 (and hopefully speeding up the progress on it) I don't truly care too much about them.

Improvavel · Mar 18, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daeheru

Yes, the players that buy the Merc Pack are at an advantage simply for the obvious reason that they can get more heroes of a single profession. The only drawback to that is that they have to have a character of that profession (although they could just make a PvP char).

The game was fine the way it was before. The only time that more than 2-3 of a single profession was used in a team build is for SCs which require PvE skills for almost all builds, meaning players were needed. It wasn't like there were areas that REQUIRED 4+ heroes of the same profession.

I believe that ANet just did this for the money. They knew players would think it would be cool to see their other characters that they spent money on to make them look good in a party. That plus the cost shows this. It's not worth $45 to see 7 (or 8 in 12-man areas) heroes that look like your characters in your party.

The only benefits that I see for the players with the merc pack (as far as gameplay is concerned) are:
1. More team build possibilities, giving players an advantage by using real money (which I HATE when other MMO games do that, Archlord for example).
2. Players can now do 12-man areas with just heroes. For this ANet conveniently (sarcasm) made it so that if you wanted to do this, you had to either go in with 11 people in the team (you+7 heroes+3 merc heroes) or spend another $25 to fill that last slot with another merc (or could you get the 3 pack+1 for only $30?). This also supports the argument that ANet released this to get money.

However, I know that the game does not require these mercs so I don't really care about them. Also, I know that other players will buy these and as long as the money goes to improving GW2 (and hopefully speeding up the progress on it) I don't truly care too much about them.

That is wrong. No player is allowed to use more than 7 heroes. Not even in Urgoz/Deep.

Xiaquin · Mar 18, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

I have a full merc pack, and I still think it's a great idea to add a few more heroes ingame. Make it an even number for each profession.

I see them as cosmetic, but undoubtedly many people ran out to buy them for homogenization. Even so, the impact on the game seems dubious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Questions!

1. How significant an advantage would make people start questioning a microtransaction? If we're arguing about the minor effect of things, the buyable option to have a second secondary profession probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run, right? What about axes that do 6-30 damage?

Those two examples do break the game because they are doing the impossible. There is no way for anyone to have two secondaries or get an axe with higher damage. On the other hand, it's entirely possible to have a team of homogeneous professions and was easily done with just one other human player (for most professions, at least). I saw screen displaying a human team of eight paragons clearing UW. This is not a new concept, or one that breaks the game rules.

Giving heroes/mercs access to PvE skills would be where I draw the line.

Ka Tet · Mar 18, 2011, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Micro-transactions are a business model. If you support the early stages of it, you have no one to blame when you find yourself having to pay an extra $.99 every time you want to start a new level/area of the game.
If the business model is supported by consumers, it will become pervasive. If it is not supported, its growth will be greatly diminished, and the trend will hopefully die.

gremlin · Mar 19, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I think almost all of the "micro transactions" thus far have been minor in game impact.

I have the bonus weapon pack and the fire imp now this gives me a definite advantage at the start of the game, no doubt about it.

But it soon evens out and later in the game just lets me easily equip heroes.

I think the jury is still out on whether mercs give that much of an advantage.
There are many fine builds out there and players have been using multiple accounts for ages.
Also 2 players can do pretty much what 7 heroes can as we can effect take the same 3 heroes each and one players heroes gets a name change.

If I had the money I might do it but to be honest I am more concerned with the next gw game not minor gripes about this one.

Why? · Mar 19, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Merc heroes do not give an in game advantage.

I bought the 8 pack, i played around with a bunch of the combos.

I ended up using 3 rit heroes only because I am lazy. I am telling you what i run now is not better than a balanced build using only the heroes you get with the game.

I went through a full party of mesmers. It stinks. I was using Vizunah's Square HM to test. I ended up with the equivalent of the 3 Necro's, 2 mesmer's and 2 rit builds that everyone is using anyways.

SF heroes didn't do much for obvious reasons. I tried a full party of Spirit Rift heroes. That was decent, but not as fast as the n/me/rt build. Heroes don't use DwG well at all, so i ran clamour of souls on the heroes. Didn't work that well, and clunky as all heck.

Now if i tried long and hard enough, i might be able to find some area where i get some sort of advantage. But for generel pve, there is no added play advantage.

Now, getting to stare at a lot of attractive women instead of staring at zhed, razah and master of whispers, that is worth every penny.

The BMP packs free weapons and the fire imp from the goty give more of an advantage than the merc heroes. That imp is crazy good.

MithranArkanere · Mar 19, 2011, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Questions!

1. How significant an advantage would make people start questioning a microtransaction? If we're arguing about the minor effect of things, the buyable option to have a second secondary profession probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run, right? What about axes that do 6-30 damage?

2. For people who feel fine with spending money because they feel like GW is a very good value in terms of fun per cost, is the marginal amount of fun for the cost of, say, a $45 mercenary hero pack worth it, objectively? Try to avoid postpurchase validation.

1. I don't like items that are not acquired once, and that give clear advantages that are not available to the rest of the players in any way.
For example, a shop with a catalog of weapons with exclusive properties, impossible to find or replicate in any way in-game, that you must buy one by one, or if the consumables were GWShop items not available for free in-game.
That I would not accept.
Fortunately, I don't think they'll ever do that.
Even with the heroes, you can still make a party with humans if you really want a full party of necromancers. And the PvE skills and the slightly higher IQ of the average players easily makes up for the reduced reaction time.

2. It's only worth it if you buy the whole pack. One by one they are way to expensive. In €, their cost is less than half when you buy the whole pack.
I recommend to buy the big pack, or none at all.

Kunder · Mar 19, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

1. How significant an advantage would make people start questioning a microtransaction? If we're arguing about the minor effect of things, the buyable option to have a second secondary profession probably wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run, right? What about axes that do 6-30 damage?

I think the important point here is mercs are still weaker than players. A tertiary profession would make you strictly superior to other players, same for higher damage weapons. Mercs just expand your options solo.

Quote:

Merc heroes do not give an in game advantage.

I bought the 8 pack, i played around with a bunch of the combos.

I ended up using 3 rit heroes only because I am lazy. I am telling you what i run now is not better than a balanced build using only the heroes you get with the game.

I went through a full party of mesmers. It stinks. I was using Vizunah's Square HM to test. I ended up with the equivalent of the 3 Necro's, 2 mesmer's and 2 rit builds that everyone is using anyways.

SF heroes didn't do much for obvious reasons. I tried a full party of Spirit Rift heroes. That was decent, but not as fast as the n/me/rt build. Heroes don't use DwG well at all, so i ran clamour of souls on the heroes. Didn't work that well, and clunky as all heck.

Now if i tried long and hard enough, i might be able to find some area where i get some sort of advantage. But for generel pve, there is no added play advantage.

I don't think many people are really concerned about the in game advantage. 95% of those complainers are noobs who think 8x discord is the best build in the world, ignore them. 3x rits or mesmers is a conceivable advantage, but you aren't likely going to be able to quantify that it is measurably faster or stronger than just putting a necro or ER ele in their place to do a similar job.

The main complaint is restricting options. Plenty of people play guild wars simply for the fun of making different builds. For example, I would love to run 6x ranger r-spike or 8x PI mesmer knockdown spam. Is it strictly stronger than a balanced build? Almost certainly not, but I'm still a bit miffed at not being able to play around with them without paying.

*lemming* · Mar 19, 2011, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If 8 fully customizable skill bars are overpowered and make the game to easy that is because the skills are overpowered and the AI is dumb, it isn't because heroes are overpowered.

You don't solve that by only allowing players that play with at least 1 other player to be entitled to customize their party.

You solve it by nerfing the power of skills and fixing AI.

Undoubtedly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

When those things happen we can talk about them.

The reception to this could well be the first step to those things happening. Unfortunately, people seem to not mind that implication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Those two examples do break the game because they are doing the impossible. There is no way for anyone to have two secondaries or get an axe with higher damage.

Last time I checked, it was also impossible for one person without mercenary slots to take four mesmer heroes and three rit heroes.

Is one kind of impossibility being made possible by a microtransaction somehow more legitimate than another?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

Merc heroes do not give an in game advantage.

Having more options that are otherwise unavailable is an advantage. I'm not seeing how this is actually debatable.

Daesu · Mar 19, 2011, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Having more options that are otherwise unavailable is an advantage. I'm not seeing how this is actually debatable.

But how is this different from buying a new campaign though? The guy without EOTN would not have profession-agnostic PvE skills, can't acquire cons except through player trading, and miss out on certain heroes.